Wednesday, March 17, 2010

The Tea Party and The Illusion of Fiscal Conservatism

By Roger F. Gay

The question is raised: Is there a place for social conservatism in a conservative political movement? While it seems that many (informal personal polling) take the question seriously, and most often say yes – the more the merrier – there's influence in numbers – a few shrug it off as part of a vast left-wing media conspiracy to spit the coalescing conservative movement. Ignoring the question won't answer it and could easily weaken conservative influence before 2012.

The fiscal conservatives of the T.E.A. Party tend to insist that neither political conservatism nor social issues matter. T.E.A. is an acronym for “Taxed Enough Already,” and despite a very strong focus on Constitutional issues and over-reaching federal power expressed among its mass of participants, founders and organizers press to limit their scope to purely fiscal concerns. This they assert, is the big enchilada, large tent conservatism that is needed. Money is the root of all political evil and keeping taxation and spending under control is the final solution.

The political conservatives in the bunch (the old-fashioned Constitution thumping classic political liberals – or in ObamaSpeak: “domestic terrorists”) can very well ask; Haven't we been down this road before? Isn't “liberal tax and spend” verses the “conservative” lesser of two evils a bit too reminiscent of “business as usual”; the usual business that got us into the great mess we're in today? This is a crowd worth considering. Their independent-mindedness stems from a love of country that far outweighs party loyalty. Many of them would gladly support a third party or not vote in protest in a continuing effort to break the old business as usual cycle. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me a dozen or more times and I might have to vote differently!

Real tension has been building around the divisions of varying conservative identities for decades. The great emergencies for Democrats today are nationalized medicine and global warming. Back in the 1980s and 1990s, one of the great emergencies for both parties was that lazy, irresponsible people were weighing down the welfare system. Poor people simply didn't have the right moral character and needed the federal government to step in to “enforce personal responsibility.” (Fathers through the mid- 1990s followed by mothers in the late 1990s.)

To meet the challenge, socially conservative rhetoric was employed to expand the role, power, intrusiveness, size and cost of the welfare establishment and expand welfare entitlements. (That'll teach 'em!) A new era of bipartisanship emerged as both parties focused their zeal on “doing something” at the federal level; completely abandoning any thought of states' rights, privacy, and Constitutional limits to government. To be fair, it wasn't just poor people who needed forceful moral guidance from the new army of bureaucrat crusaders. For the first time in American history, the reach of the “welfare state” was expanded beyond its traditional boundaries (those in need) and into the general population. Fundamental changes in the relationship between government and the people went unnoticed by the mass media and through the 1990s, great battles ensued between the parties over repackaging and taking credit for reforms.

Social conservatism had become the perfect compliment to social liberalism in American politics and fiscally conservative rhetoric the perfect wood from which to build the bridge. Every expansion of government, along with its fancy price-tag was justified because in “theory” it would save tax-payers money. Poverty was a result of poor moral foundation and Bigger Government could fix that. Of course, it didn't work out according to the theory – something many “skeptics” concretely predicted on the basis of observable facts and figures. The media beating those skeptics received make the global warming debate seem quite civilized in comparison. Critics were considered enemies by both partisan camps, and what a filthy beneath human scum type you were to oppose Big Brother this time – right down there with the immoral, low-life deadbeats moral reformers aimed at reforming.

When the facts supporting the morally fiscal “theory” were proven false by their own history, it didn't matter. It's the principle that counts. But like the fiscally conservative theory that yielded unnecessarily higher costs, the adjoining socially conservative “family values” theory yielded an opposite as well – the legal destruction of marriage.

Pushing social issues onto the federal agenda is always a bad idea. The Constitution does not include social issues in federal jurisdiction. It is structured for the exercise of different types of power and particular treatments by courts for issues that at federal, state, and personal levels. Allowing federal take-overs of state (and private) issues is a formula for destruction. Everything becomes arbitrarily politically defined and manipulated. In the case of marriage, this is exactly what the unmitigated social / fiscal conservative perspective delivered.

Marriage was, legally, a sacred, protected private institution. Under the cover of welfare reform, it was legally destroyed through successive unconstitutional intrusions into marriage and family law. The institution of marriage was transformed (legally) into a politically defined element of a federal welfare program; and generally redefined as a public rather than a private issue. Once this was accomplished, its protected status disappeared and courts began ruling on it as they would any other aspect of government programs.

Republicans blamed the destruction of marriage on "activist judges," but the real problem with judicial activism was that judges had not been active enough in fulfilling their oaths to protect the Constitution by protecting the American people against the intrusion. Applying "equal protection," courts extended the new social policy entitlement of marriage to same-sex couples. This was not an extension of a civil right to traditional marriage. In a legal sense, traditional marriage no longer existed. The overall effect was to deny the legal status of traditional marriage to everyone.

You can call me a skeptic when it comes to solutions formulated by the same minds that created the problem, or in this case a similar coalition of self-defined social and fiscal conservatives. The movement to restrict the federal program entitlement of marriage to “a man and a woman” through a US Constitutional amendment collapsed. State initiatives can do little to address the real underlying problem because it was created at the federal level. Now we've moved on to other emergencies – the de facto plan apparently being that we'll all just have to get used to living with another big mess. If the same minds get together to tackle Cap-n-Trade, health care reform, and government take-over of the economy, the mess will just get bigger.

A serious conservative revolution cannot be designed from a formula for a return to business as usual. Merely using different rhetoric to expand government and increase its arbitrary use of power is not sufficient to define a philosophical difference from the political left. The genuine grass-roots conservative movement is defined by the mass of participants who have a very strong focus on Constitutional issues and over-reaching federal power. Without that translating to the expulsion Big Brother from American soil, there is little reason to suspect that conservative unity will be maintained for long; nor would the movement have any appreciable effect if it did. We really need a return to Constitutional rule to limit the destructive power of government; and that requires (by definition really) a conservative movement that meets in a politically conservative tent.



Related articles:

Are Americans Paying Taxes to Organized Crime Syndicates?

How America was Destroyed – The Rise of Big Lie Politics

Tea Party March Hijacked at the Podium

McCain Palin Losing the Gender Gap War

American Politics: We are on a Dangerous Precipice

Why John McCain is Losing

GOP Platform 2008 on Preservation of Marriage

55 Comments:

  1. I posted this on facebook but let me repeat!

    At least one huge problem for now with this article....

    Who has a monopoly on the concept of marriage when this concept was practiced throughout history by peoples all across this globe coming from different belief systems and not just religous ones ? The U.S. Constitution in itself does not define the concept of marriage.
    about an hour ago ·
    Just to add.....The Declaration of Independence was written BY the white MAN, FOR the white man and not just that but who owned land and slaves.....

    What about "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" ?

    "unalienable rights" or sovereign rights of man?

    The legal status of traditional marriage???

    Just like the original intend of the Declaration of Independence which EXCLUDED men of color and women all together...........we have EVOLVED beyond the simplistic concept of 'traditional marriage'

    Please leave the term judicial activism for those who cannot grasp the concept of Individual rights being a bottom line concept of the United States Cosntitution!

    Maria
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  2. Maria,

    Ah .... hmmm. Your comment is a bit confusing to say the least. Traditional marriage was a private institution. The new thing is defined and controlled by bureaucrats and politicians, and actually some businesses as well - mostly white men. But then ... well, actually your comment didn't seem well related to the article ... so, I don't really know where to go from there.
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  3. Hmmm, ...private you say?

    It appears to me.......someone else ALWAYS had some say in it even during the early days of the signing of the Constitution. It appears to me the states ALWAYS had a say in marriage...

    Please elaborate.....


    for example...
    1787: U.S. Constitution signed.

    1839: The first state (Mississippi) grants women the right to hold property in their own name, with their husbands’ permission. By 1900 all states had legislation granting women some control over their property and earnings.
    1855: In Missouri v. Celia, a Slave, a Black woman is declared to be property without a right to defend herself against a master’s act of rape.
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  4. 1865: The Mississippi Black Code prohibits Blacks from marrying whites, punishable by life imprisonment.
    1875: Page Law ends the arrival of Chinese women immigrants based on the fear that Asian immigrants would either begin to form families in the United States, or that “those who didn’t have the protection of a man might become a prostitute.”
    1917: The Immigration Act of 1917 bans all Asian immigration and bans “Psychopaths, Inferiors, and ‘people with abnormal sexual instincts.” Under this law lesbian and gay immigrants were officially excluded from coming to the United States until 1990.
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  5. 1918: New York v. Sanger allows doctors to advise their married patients about birth control for health purposes. It wasn’t until 1965 that all state laws prohibiting the prescription or use of contraceptives by married couples were overturned.
    1920: “Ladies Agreement” ends the arrival of Japanese and Korean picture brides. European women are also affected — they were banned from entry if they could not show that either a man or a job was available.
    1924: Immigration Act of 1924 establishes quotas that even more heavily favor Northern and Western European immigrants. Immigration from Asia is banned, including wives and children of Chinese Americans.
    1948: In Perez v. Sharp, California Supreme Court becomes first state high court to declare a ban on interracial marriage unconstitutional. In 1967 the U.S. Supreme Court, in Loving v. Virginia, overturns all state bans on interracial marriage, declaring that the “freedom to marry” belongs to all Americans.
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  6. I agree that govt has shaped the institution of marriage but one look at history and the so called 'private' institution of marriage is an abominable institution forced upon Individuals who where not granted rights under the law at the time.
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  7. "Marriage was, legally, a sacred, protected private institution. Under the cover of welfare reform, it was legally destroyed through successive unconstitutional intrusions into marriage and family law."

    "well, actually your comment didn't seem well related to the article ... so, I don't really know where to go from there."

    My comment was very well related to the article and I am trying really hard to understand what any of this has to do with true conservatism....
    I agree with a lot Ron Paul has to say but...there is always a but.....there has to be reality and we are never free from one another, especially with the ever increasing world population. I am merely asking.........what was so conservative about marriage ever in this country that you had to bring it up in your article?
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  8. I have no idea what Ron Paul's views are on this subject.

    I can see your confusion, which I don't think you're going to get over until you absorb what the article says. You seem to want to present an argument in favor of same-sex marriage much more than understanding what the article says.

    If you're interested in getting a better understanding, there are also related articles listed that give more detail on the topic.

    My own view is that the abolition of civil rights in the US is a terrible thing. Any argument that it's being done out of a sense of fairness makes me puke. To understand what I mean - the words must be taken literally - "abolition of civil rights" - if you won't acknowledge that part, then any attempt at discussion is fruitless.
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  9. This comment has been removed by the author.
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  10. This comment has been removed by the author.
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  11. Since English is not my first language, I assume my communication is a problem here....so bear with me. No need for insults.......

    I know what you are saying. You are against collectivism and anything done onto the legal system to give group rights you call judicial activism. I do have an understanding that collectivism does not equal racism for example and that often people are confused about this concept.

    I also understand that you object to the fact that the (Fed) govt has shaped the legal definition of marriage and you object to the judicial activism that has lead to this. ( Please correct me if I am wrong).

    Nevertheless, you need to be more clear on what you are referring to when you say......marriage was a private institution. Last time I checked, the State has always had some say in what marraige was all about.

    So elaborate if I may ask...
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  12. and PS, the reason I am referring to Ron Paul is because I do understand that he might be the only true conservative in the Republican party( and I know he shares your view).
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  13. Thanks for letting me know that English is not your first language. I've been living in a "foreign" country for the past 16 years or so and do not have difficulty with that problem. However - I think you go too far in attributing general impressions you have of Americans and conservatives (and even Ron Paul) to me and the article. That's not a language problem. When I write, I'm not representing any group (although others may agree with me). So, you have to focus on what I actually said - not on other ideas and impressions.

    Marriage was a private institution. It was not an "institution" in the sense of an organization - like a corporation or jointly managed non-profit entity. Marriage and family existed before the United States (or any state) came along and were (including legally) respected private, personal relationships, protected from state interference, redefinition, or manipulation generally. Respect of the "institution" (so to speak) was considered equivalent to respect for natural human rights - or more simply respect for humans.

    The arguments you give are in fact arguments that state intervention caused problems, and yet, whether you realize it or not, you're arguing in favor of more and more arbitrary government intervention.

    BTW: Lasting "civil rights" battles have been won in the US due to the fact that "civil rights" are directly related to natural rights - which have a lot to do with freedom from state control. When these issues are taken over (successfully) by the federal government, they cease to have the legal status of civil law for which civil rights are respected.

    So, take any of the complaints you have about the past related to state control. Whenever the federal government takes over, the solutions of the past are no longer available. The issue is destined to remain in hell as something that it arbitrarily politically controlled.

    Temporarily - there may be at least one thing you agree with at this point in time - that happens to have happened along with the federal takeover. But if politicians later decide to reverse that - there is no civil right remedy. Mean time - it's been ruined for everyone else.

    So, what was gained? No one gained the right to something because the something no longer exists. All that happened is that the people who used to have that something don't have it anymore.
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  14. Let me hit that point one more time. You complain about the effects of political control at a time when there was civil rights protection against government interference. What the article talks about is that we've gone in a direction in which their is no protection at all. Marriage and family issues are now in a legal state that allows absolutely arbitrary political manipulation. There is no mechanism for protecting human rights against political control at this point. None.
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  15. There is no need for a condescending tone of voice and by all means I said that I 'assume' it might be a problem in making myself clear to you. I don't necessarily disagree with much you say but I am asking a question I have not have answered as of yet. Dutch and Italian are my primary languages. And German comes third, English a meak fourth....so please bear with me!
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  16. My question to you is when you say and I quote from the article you wrote

    " Marriage was, legally, a sacred, protected private institution. Under the cover of welfare reform, it was legally destroyed through successive unconstitutional intrusions into marriage and family law."

    WHEN, when in this country ( the U.S.) was marriage private and WITHOUT state interference?

    Because as I said earlier, as long as we go back to the beginning of this nation , there has ALWAYS been some level of govt interference, it either be State or Federal.

    Can you answer this question to me?
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  17. Did you remove my posts?

    There is no need to be condesending. After Dutch, Italian and German...English comes in as a meak fourth language for me. I did not say anything about your communication. I said I might not make myself clear.

    My ONLY question to you is ....when you say in your article and I quote...

    "Marriage was, legally, a sacred, protected private institution. Under the cover of welfare reform, it was legally destroyed through successive unconstitutional intrusions into marriage and family law. The institution of marriage was transformed (legally) into a politically defined element of a federal welfare program; and generally redefined as a public rather than a private issue. Once this was accomplished, its protected status disappeared and courts began ruling on it as they would any other aspect of government programs."

    WHEN under the United States Constitution was marriage private?
    As far as I am concerned there has ALWAYS been some level of govt interference.

    Can you please answer this question???
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  18. and....question nr 2

    Is this conservatism.......? Giving State GOVT the right to a monopoly on the concept of marriage while history shows that marriage has been a concept with different purposes ( passing on women as property or ensuring transfer of estates) for different religions and etnicities..
    If marriage should be a 'private' institution according to the concept of conservatism WITHOUT govt interference, should Individuals determine themselves what the meaning of a marriage is?

    "A Republican Congress enacted the Defense of Marriage Act, affirming the right of states not to recognize same-sex “marriages” licensed in other states. "
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  19. Marriage and family existed before the US and the government had very little to do with them during most of the country's history. Historically, the state's got involved in divorce disputes in the same manner in which they'd get involved in any other civil dispute. i.e. a suit filed by one private individual against another over purely private personal issues. The civil law process is basically a common law process, and any action taken by the state must be rational, with minimum intrusion and limited to very strongly justified purposes. For quite some, notifying the government of a marriage, or the birth of children wasn't even considered necessary.

    Census gave way to public health concerns, for example - restricting marriage between close relatives, and for a time between people of different races as you have pointed out. The rise in taxes eventually created the popular idea of giving tax breaks to families and children.

    As I've said before and in related articles for which there are links; marriage and family were private, and any action by the state was under civil law. That meant that the interference of government was severely limited, primarily to health (rights of the child - still considered to be a real human individual at the time), and the limited role of settling private disputes - dissolving marriages, etc.

    That was true until 1993 when the US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals reclassified marriage and family issues from civil law (private, protected) issues to social policy (public, non-protected).

    I think I'm repeating myself; being perfectly consistent with what I've said before. The difference is between having civil rights and not having them. The difference it makes is whether or not individuals can be treated arbitrarily by the state. Before 1993, they could not be (as a matter of law, even though they were sometimes). Beginning in 1993, civil rights disappeared. Now as a matter of law (by the courts), the door is open to any arbitrary treatment by government.

    They can for example, take your children if they decide to - for no good reason. They decide they want children to grow up separately from their parents, they can just say that's better by passing laws that say the state rather than parents will raise children, build big government child care facilities and begin rounding them all up. Because of the current "social policy" relationship between family and the state - there is no Constitutional protection against such actions.
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  20. I agree with your concern about govt intervention into marriage but I wholeheartedly disagree with this quote

    "the US and the government had very little to do with them during most of the country's history. "

    The US govt , it either at the state level or federal level has had definite say in marriage matters as I documented above. Also it comes straight back to my original statement about "Who has the monopoly on the concept of marriage'? The U.S. Constitution does not have anything to say on Marriage in itself.

    The Bible does not have a monopoly on the concept of marriage and if people are granted Freedom of Wor shipping under the U.S. Constitution, and history shows us that the concept of marriage existed in all cultures, among all peoples from different countries and among all religions for different purposes, I say.....TRUE conservatism is INDEED leaving the concept of WHAT marriage constitutes and leave it up to the INDIVIDUAL.

    If a church does not want to marry same sex couples. they should not have to ( and they don't have to today)

    If a church does recognize same sex couples to be eligible, they should be able to ( some churches do)

    Any INDIVIDUAL should be able to marry or enter a marriage according to the definition they give to the concept of marriage.

    The GOVT should stay out of it and THAT would be TRUE conservatism.

    NOT forcing the Bible's concept of marriage onto a society THROUGH Govt!
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  21. PS.just to clarify..I am a heterosexual woman , married for 24 years with children!
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  22. Limiting GOVT involvement to making any marriage only available to consenting Adults!
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  23. I guess my objection lays with the misuse of the term conservatism.

    There is nothing conservative about forcing your version of marriage onto someone else.

    There is nothing conservative running up the tab through taxpayer funded warfare

    There is nothing conservative about the "Defense marriage Act

    There is nothing conservative about todays Republican Party.
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  24. Let me correct myself

    * taxpayer funded UN-constitutional warfare
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  25. The examples you give really don't support your argument. You've argued in defense of the destruction of civil rights and the established institution of marriage and family relationships as Constitutionally protected relationships.

    Certainly, minimizing government intrusion - to at this point pull it back from being completely destructive and restoring individual rights is an American conservative position.

    I think you've done your best now in attempting to defend the destruction of marriage and abolition of civil rights to give same-sex couples equal legal status. The facts aren't going to change and the consequences aren't going to improve through repetition of the argument.
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  26. This comment has been removed by the author.
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  27. The Federal Marriage Amendment (FMA) (also referred to by proponents as the Marriage Protection Amendment) was a proposed amendment to the United States Constitution which would have limited marriage in the United States to unions of one man and one woman. The FMA would also have prevented judicial extension of marriage rights to same-sex or other unmarried couples, as well as preventing polygamy. An amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires the support of two thirds of each house of Congress, and ratification by three fourths of the states (currently thirty-eight). The most recent Congressional vote to take place on the proposed Amendment occurred in the United States House of Representatives on July 18, 2006 when the Amendment failed 236 yea to 187 nay votes, falling short of the 290 yea votes required for passage in that body. The Senate has only voted on cloture motions with regard to the proposed Amendment, the last of which was on June 7, 2006 when the motion failed 49 yea to 48 nay votes, falling short of the 60 yea votes required to proceed to consideration of the Amendment.


    Roger,


    "The examples you give really don't support your argument. You've argued in defense of the destruction of civil rights and the established institution of marriage and family relationships as Constitutionally protected relationships."

    May I suggest you take up Constitutional law?

    The claim you are making in this paragraph does not exist.
    The U.S. Constitution does NOT mention Marriage and does NOT grant the protection of the established institution of Marriage and Family relationships.

    The U.S. Constitution DOES grant you Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness!

    I am astonished at your post but I respectfully Agree to Disagree.
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  28. And with regards to State Constitutions and their Defense of marriage acts.............

    Article VI of the United States Constitution applies as such:
    All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

    This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
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  29. Maria;

    Your continued argument continues to be as confused as it has been all along. You're trying to make increased government intrusion and loss of civil rights look like a conservative position. That of course is wrong, so there is no valid argument to find - no matter how long you look.

    Now you're trying to use the premise that the Constitution defines government as all powerful and the only protections against intrusion provided must be specific and explicit. This is one of the goofiest arguments the anti-Civil rights crowd offers - right up there with Nancy Pelosi's "broad mandate" under "general welfare."

    I have written several times in opposition to the so-called "defense of marriage" amendments - both at state and federal level. They do not address the civil rights problem. They are "feel-good" "social conservative" band-aids on amputated body parts.
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  30. RE: Your examples. The examples you have given are strongly related to things other than a government desire to intrude in marriage and family. Nonetheless, even if you regard them as good examples of government intrusion in marriage and family:

    1. No part of the commentary in the article claims or logically depends upon the idea that the US - including states - have at all times throughout the nation's history been completely non-intrusive. There certainly could be other examples of government intrusion that one could write about, not discussed in the article.

    2. More and deeper government intrusion is not a politically conservative formula for solving problems of government intrusion.

    It is point #2 that you are logically trying to argue - that more and deeper government intrusion is called for, because there has been government intrusion. Generally speaking, an American political conservative leans more toward minimizing government intrusion, not expanding it. Logically - it's obvious that if government intrusion is the problem - the politically conservative solution (and certainly the one that makes sense) would be to reduce or eliminate the intrusion.
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  31. Take a concrete case. I believe above you mentioned a law banning interracial marriage. I haven't checked, but I believe it's a reasonable guess that such a law would have been deemed unconstitutional - a violation of civil rights; if the legislature didn't change it first.

    One way or another - no such law exists today. The solution was definitely not a federal government take-over of marriage and family law and elimination of civil rights. A particular instance of a civil right was recognized (even though its not explicitly stated in the Constitution). Civil rights - in concrete applied terms - were expanded through recognition - not reduced.
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  32. For example;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia
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  33. 'Your continued argument continues to be as confused as it has been all along. You're trying to make increased government intrusion and loss of civil rights look like a conservative position. That of course is wrong, so there is no valid argument to find - no matter how long you look."

    1)But Roger, who tried to Amend the U.S. Constitution at the Federal Level to pass a Defense of Marriage Act???


    2) Who objects to 'equal protection' clauses at the State level but is perfectly ok with the Defense of Marriage Acts at the State level?

    3) Who objects to States passing 'same sex' marriage laws?


    You CANNOT claim to be conservative, OBJECT TO the Federal Govt taking over while petitioning the Congress to pass an Amendment on the United States Constitution and have DISREGARD for what happens at the STate level.

    May I remind you Roger, that PRECEDENT case law is almost next to nothing ( at the State and Federal Level ) with regards to 'same sex' marriage rights and will have to be explored in order to show ANY of your positions ( or mine for that matter) to be Constitutional!
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  34. Also, may I remind you ( with regards to the attempt of so called 'conservatives' to amend the United States Constitution to include a definition of marriage to be between an man and a woman ,that the U.S. Constitution has NEVER been amended to restrict Individual Rights but ONLY to expand them.
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  35. As for your adhom attacks on me Roger, they do not suit the American way of respectfully Agree to disagree!
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  36. Maria;

    Your arguments are confusing at least partly because you don't read or don't understand what I've already commented on. I oppose defense of marriage amendments. I've written some articles stating my opposition, and mentioned that in posts above.

    "But Roger, who tried to Amend the U.S. Constitution at the Federal Level to pass a Defense of Marriage Act???"

    --- Not me. If this is the argument you want to have, why don't you find someone who did?
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  37. Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna of Russia, third daughter of Tsar Nicholas II and Tsarina Alexandra Fyodorovna. Her murder following the Russian Revolution of 1917 resulted in her canonization as a passion bearer by the Russian Orthodox Church.
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  38. Roger,

    I suggest you stop feeling personally attacked and drop a condescending tone in your posts...( I have now asked four of five times).You constantly either demean or lecture me on how goofy my argument is or how I do not understand.

    When I said ...
    ""But Roger, who tried to Amend the U.S. Constitution at the Federal Level to pass a Defense of Marriage Act???"

    .......quoting myself

    "Also, may I remind you ( with regards to the attempt of so called 'conservatives' to amend the United States Constitution to include a definition of marriage to be between an man and a woman ,that the U.S. Constitution has NEVER been amended to restrict Individual Rights but ONLY to expand them."



    I do understand Roger.

    And when you say and I quote
    "
    Generally speaking, an American political conservative leans more toward minimizing government intrusion, not expanding it. Logically - it's obvious that if government intrusion is the problem - the politically conservative solution (and certainly the one that makes sense) would be to reduce or eliminate the intrusion."


    I say.....it comes right back to my original post and question............

    WHO is to define the concept and definition of marriage when history has shown us that there has been an evolving of numerous concepts with regards to marriage as well in this country as throughout the world.

    It is you I believe , who is unwilling to answer this question.....
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  39. And this....quoting you


    "It is point #2 that you are logically trying to argue - that more and deeper government intrusion is called for, because there has been government intrusion. Generally speaking, an American political conservative leans more toward minimizing government intrusion, not expanding it. Logically - it's obvious that if government intrusion is the problem - the politically conservative solution (and certainly the one that makes sense) would be to reduce or eliminate the intrusion."


    does NOT equal this....quoting myself

    "The Bible does not have a monopoly on the concept of marriage and if people are granted Freedom of Wor shipping under the U.S. Constitution, and history shows us that the concept of marriage existed in all cultures, among all peoples from different countries and among all religions for different purposes, I say.....TRUE conservatism is INDEED leaving the concept of WHAT marriage constitutes and leave it up to the INDIVIDUAL."
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  40. Maria:

    I understand that you want to carry on an emotional argument with someone. But I'm going to bow out here. You're obviously not interested in my views and need to look for a better match for your debate.
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  41. Roger, calling my argument emotional is an adhom attack.

    When people resort to adhominum attacks they usually cannot deal with the argument presented to them.

    Good luck with your articles.

    Respectfully yours
    Maria
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  42. And finally I read up on some of your articles which are a reflection of your personal stand with regards to this topic and which are indeed reflected in the paragraph with regards to marriage in the article above...

    ************************************************

    Divorced Dads: Family Champions

    July 14, 2003

    by Roger F. Gay


    "The spearhead of the anti-family movement has historically been aimed at fathers, and has often been part of an attack against men generally. "Women's Liberation" was largely about liberating women from the "slavery of marriage," a difficult concept to grasp without a "vast conspiracy against women in a male dominated society." Feminists regard all women everywhere as some kind of mass communal or spiritual family. Men need not apply unless they want to donate money and sperm to a family to which they can never belong.

    The feminist campaign was successful. The United States is unique in having established the first reverse Islamic culture in which women hold all family rights and men have none. Children are generally treated as the property of their mothers. Fathers are assigned responsibilities and can be punished severely, by the will of mothers and with the full support of states and the federal government, if they do not do as they are told. Many fathers lose their homes, their incomes, and their children simply because their wives lose interest in them. Government support for the practice is so strong, that changing spouses after children have been born has become a viable method for women to accumulate wealth. "
    ***********************************************

    The Anti family movement? While the position of women in marriage throughout history has been vastly documented, the existence of an Anti-family movement does not exist.
    Intellectual dishonesty and the denial of Individual rights to those that do not fit 'traditional molds' whatever that may be in a multicultural and ethnically diverse society are at the center of fake conservatism.

    Thank you for your time. You are indeed correct. There is no honest debating of facts when one wants to debate on irrational topics like marriage and its 'traditional' meaning.
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  43. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXrUdgTMG4E

    Executive Vice President of the Cato Institute and Libertarian thinker David Boaz advocates for the privatization of marriage.
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  44. Oh and just to add, David Boaz holds the same "Goofy opinion" as I do.....

    Now you're trying to use the premise that the Constitution defines government as all powerful and the only protections against intrusion provided must be specific and explicit. This is one of the goofiest arguments the anti-Civil rights crowd offers - right up there with Nancy Pelosi's "broad mandate" under "general welfare."
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  45. of course that last paragraph being you in your own words when I offered the exact same answer as the Vice President of the Cato Institute and Libertarian thinker David Boaz. Which be the way I had not heard.
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  46. David Boaz presents the same position I have. Your focus is on support of same-sex marriage while the focus of my commentary is on the damage done by nationalization; because marriage is no longer a private institution now that it has been nationalized.

    I communicated the ideas Boaz presents to Cato 10-15 years ago with a series of communications and articles. At the time, they had some "experts" who had jumped on the nationalization bandwagon and I argued that they were wrong. Since then, the federalizers have all gone from Cato and they've accepted my position. Based on Boaz's comments, that was about 10 years ago.
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  47. I think you should find one of the response videos more interesting, as it seems to better fit your frame of thought just now:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6tevk455Xs
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  48. You appear to have misunderstood my words than Roger.....
    In this Youtube vid David Boaz is saying exactly what I mentioned above.

    Marriage should be a private institution for ALL people. But if it is run by govt as it is today, ALL people should be treated equally under the law.

    My focus is not on same sex marriage but it includes same sex marriage.

    If you agree with this YT vid like I do, I think we must be on the same page than?
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  49. I will check out the clip you posted.
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  50. This comment has been removed by the author.
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  51. With regards to that vid...

    The concept of LOVE was only added by the French in the seventeenth century.....

    Another evolving concept within marriage.....
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  52. As I said in the commentary; marriage was a private institution. That's what was destroyed by the federal take-over.
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  53. I know you did. My objection was to the word 'traditional'. Since marriage has been an forever evolving concept with the French adding the concept of Love in the seventeenth century......
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  54. Love : always wondered who invented that. It was the French, you say. :)
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